The North East Tolkien Society: Heren
Istarion Interviews:
Robert Bass
Carnegie Hall -- Special Event
Anthony Burdge: On this evening, September 7, 2005 Jessica Burke, the Cochair of the North East Tolkien Society, the Editor in Chief of our journal Parma Nole, and myself the chairman and webmaster of the North East Tolkien Society have the pleasure and honor to sit with Robert Bass, the Music Director of the world renowned Collegiate Chorale since 1980, and is entering into his 26th year as the Conductor at Carnegie Hall—thank you this evening for having us. Robert Bass: It's a pleasure to be with you Anthony Burdge: The opening season concert of 2006- 2006 will feature The Rings: Myth and Music, which combines excerpts from Richard Wagner's cycle of operas as well as the Lord of the Rings Symphony composed by Howard Shore for the Lord of the Rings films, which will have, if I'm not mistaken, the 1st and 2nd movements. With the popularity of Wagner's operas, the LOTR films, and Tolkien's body of work, which draws fans of all ages, what kind of role or impact will this play, if any, on the Collegiate Chorale and Carnegie Hall for its season opening concert? Robert Bass: Well, I think one of the challenges of all the performing arts
these days is to reach out to new audiences and I thought that this type of program with
the combination of Richard Wagner who is one of the great opera composers, and
Howard Shore who is one of the great film composers, would draw a cross section of
opera lovers, film lovers, Tolkien lovers, mythology and legend lovers and what inspired
me was the music. I mean that's, when you do concert's at Carnegie Hall that's first and
foremost is the music, and I found as I got aquainted with the Lord of the Rings
Symphony that it's a classic film score. Anthony Burdge: Thank you, and I believe he said
[Howard Shore] by Wagner himself and his music, its played, had that sort of effect as
you noted before. Robert Bass: : I haven't made a final decision about that but I think the 2nd half of the concert, the Lord of the Rings music, Howard Shore's music, works as a suite the way's he's composed it, it's interconnected and we will use titles so the audience will understand whatever language the chorus will be singing in only at the very end is there a bit in English, they'll follow the titles and the subheading of each movement, so there's one called, The Prophecy, and there's one called, oh, I should get the list, I can't remember each of them, and for the Wagner half, there I think we may have a narrator because we are jumping from opera to opera, I think that's going to need, for the audience, some explanation or ways to communicate why, how these works come together, so we will probably, I will talk to Roger Rees, who is also the artistic director of the Williamstowne Theater Festival, now we might craft some text for the 1st half of the evening and we may try to reach out to one of the actors from the films to deliver that text, so we're thinking about that, but we haven't acted on it as of yet. Anthony Burdge I noticed in the past with some of the [LOTR] Symphonies that have been going on throughout the world and the special DVD they had Howard Shore narrating, they had illustrations for the Lord of the Rings half, with Alan Lee's work, illustrating what was actually going on. Robert Bass:: Right, in some performances they use those illustrations but in conversations with Howard Shore for this one, we wanted to let the music stand on its own, we talked about that and it is a choice, but this time it will feature music and text, there will be titles for whatever is sung in German for the Wagner half and whatever is sung in whatever language of the excerpts from Tolkien. Anthony Burdge: Both the LOTR film score and Wagner's operas are derived from literary sources, which have their similarities and differences, would this affect how you approach the music and its theatrical delivery? Robert Bass::I think, yes is the answer to that, because what we are about is the marriage of works and music and what we can it is: exploring the full spectrum of the vocal arts and I think one of the great achievements of Wagner and, in my opinion, Howard Shore, is when they write for a mass group of singers ,a chorus, it begins to sound like the voice of humanity, it starts to sound collective as opposed, there are some solos, and we will have soloists, but the majority of this will have large chorus’ in it, and it has universal themes that keep appearing in Wagner's work and in Tolkien's and Howard Shore's work. So I think those texts are either selected or inspire the composer to create sounds, that would enhance them and I also think its interesting for people when they go to a concert if they have the titles they can follow the meaning of the text, but what the composer has done is decided what is meant for him. So that if we gave the same works to another composer other than Howard Shore or Richard Wagner, they would set those words differently, so the subtext of the words is delivered by the orchestra and the chorus but the meaning will be there for the audience. And I would encourage everybody to listen to what was Wagner's point of view on these words and this legend and mythology and what was Howard Shore's, you know Wagner was obviously responding in the world of opera and Shore was responding in the world of film, but the subtext of what they were thinking musically is revealed by the voices and orchestra and I think that something each audience member does on each of his or her own, and we don't have to agree, the better the pieces, the pieces of music, the more choices in the music for what might represent, and ultimately if its even ambiguous that for some people is the highest achievement that the composer opens the door, or asks the questions , but doesn’t necessarily answer them, but inspires us all to think about it as we leave or as we are listening, I think both composers do that. Anthony Burdge:I think that's amazing how you depicted
the chorus, one symphony, one body being similar to how Tolkien describes how his
world being created, in the opening book of The Silmarillion, is the Ainulindale, which has
the Music of the Ainur and they are all singing in a symphony creating a world, creating
Middle-earth and it is sort of that comparison, putting it together, your group and
everyone else in the 2nd half, and of course Wagner's in regards to Tolkien how he put
together as a concert as an event as one body, one whole so to speak. I find that very
beautiful and inspiring for us looking forward to this event. Robert Bass::Well I think sometimes you want to program pieces that are
very different, lets say from different centuries or when your doing music, sometimes, I
could understanding someone wanting to do and evening of Howard Shore's music and
the various scores for various films, for beside the Lord of the Rings, you would realize he
has a very wide talent. The music he wrote for The Aviator, or the music that he wrote for
other films of his, have, they don't have the same sounds as the Lord of the Rings does.
And so, I think that sometimes you want to show contrast and sometime you want to
show over time that there are certain ideas that keep recurring that's how I view this
concert. Anthony Burdge: I find it interesting that some of the reports from the other symphonies going on around the world, a lot who have come to know Tolkien or Howard Shore, is through the films or that they have heard Howard Shore for the 1st time there, or are familiar with his work, but if they are coming to it for the 1st time and either the books or the films, on a lot of the reports we've read they've had that impression, they leave it getting so much meaning, or you know similar thoughts from the books and films or completely unique ideas about what they've heard that evening, and they seem sort of changed by it and I find that incredible to read. Robert Bass: I think what their talking about is the power of music, which is different from the written word, different from a film, and I think the power of music, one of the reasons people say that opera is the ultimate art form, may because it combines vocal music, orchestral music and theatre but ultimately the power of music transcends all of these, whether it's the printed word or film and I think that's the mark of a great composer when they can transcend all of this and that's what they're referring to that affect's people. Anthony Burdge: Can you compare an event, such as this, to any in your career utilizing similar methods that will be applied to The Rings: Myth and Music? Robert Bass: I think it follows the pattern, of our, we called it the Crown Imperial Film and Music, when we did The Lion in Winter, Eisenstein's Ivan the Terrible and I think we will keep returning to scores of this caliber, music of this caliber and depending upon what the centerpiece of the concert is. We will then pair it with another work that shines a different light on it, and that will, and I can't say exactly what that will be because you want to craft an evening and where each one will be special and unique unto itself, but returning to music written for the film, I think everybody is now aware what great music there is in films and as people who produce concerts we are all aware we want to include that in our repertoire and program it in a way that its not separate. That's why I'm doing it with Wagner and why last time with Prokofiev, who is sort of a classical composer and John Barry who's a great film composer. I would rather integrate than segregate. Anthony Burdge:There's a quote here that Jessica found,
you mentioned the Lion in Winter : Robert Bass: I think composers are very smart people and I think they know what forces to use to communicate, you use the word mood, I use the word color, it's the same thing and I think composers know when you use a mass people like a chorus or an orchestra your going to get an evening of colors and moods rather than a single singer creating a character and enlivening a text, specific storytelling, does that make sense? If you have a song in opera or an aria it has a beginning, middle, and end dramatically. I think that when you use a chorus I think you are already saying this will have larger ideas, a bigger canvas, sometimes they just repeat the same words over and over again and sometimes its not the actual meaning of the word at the moment but that color or mood inspired the composer to create. I find that the text is more specific when its an individual or two or three people singing together that it is when you have mass groups of people, then you get to moods and colors. We have, in this concert, inserted some solo music in the Wagner and they are a few short solos in the Howard Shore's but by and large, I think this evening is about the moods and colors of these composers. Anthony Burdge: The work of JRR Tolkien and Wagner both contain elements of myth and fantasy, inspired by ancient lore and history, do you feel that myth and fantasy play a role in our modern society? If so, please elaborate on either its importance or lack thereof. Robert Bass: I think everyone is drawn to legends, I'll tell you what I think about, we were talking about pre-school and I think when you read fables and stories to children the same themes keep recurring and those stories are passed on from generation to generation and different cultures have certain themes within their folklore that they like to return to but that what makes it universal there are recurring themes whether you take a story inspired by English history or Norse Mythology or whatever part of the world. I think Tolkien was successful in creating for English Literature, but for the Norse, for Wagner and for the Germans it was already there and they could use it. But he created it and the reason he could create it closer to our times, because it doesn't matter what time you live in. I think that's part of the human condition over many generations and that also what makes this concert work because of that, like I said before it's a timeless notion and that's why we tell those stories to kids, and that's why folk music often has inspired and is an element here, always will return in some way because this folklore, these are legends and myths and that kind of music, folk music suits that beautifully. Then you can take it and expand it in whatever way the composer wishes. Anthony Burdge I've noticed with some of the reports of
the different symphonies, the Lord of the Rings Symphonies, is that those who are familiar
with some of the folklore, the legends and myths, which inspired Tolkien, that they get the
same impressions, and more of course, from hearing the music as they have when they've
read these legends and tales. Jessica Burke: The following questions were submitted by
Edward Rodrigues, the President of The Gathering of the Fellowship, he
asks: Robert Bass:I think two things come to my mind right away he
included some instruments from I would call them Middle-eastern inspired that are not
traditionally in a symphony orchestra. You have to get players that are familiar with those
sounds and he also uses, takes advantage to a great extent, the great choices in modern
percussion instruments of creating sounds all different types of drums and small percussion
instruments. Jessica Burke:"What do you think it is that makes the music of the Lord of the Rings so compelling? Is it tied inexorably to the images and themes of the source, the film , or is there some other intrinsic quality that allows it to stand on its own and separate from the film?" Robert Bass: If I didn't believe the music wouldn't stand on its own separate from the film I wouldnt do this concert. I think that anybody that comes to Carnegie Hall can make that decision for themselves then maybe some people will say from a classical world-- 'I'm not really familar with Howard Shore's music, I want to come and hear it.'- And I think there may be people who love Howard Shore's music and the Lord of the Rings and there coming here for Wagner and say --'I'm turned onto that' but I think, what I hope that everybody who comes to Carnegie Hall, will discover that these scores, this music does stand fantastically on its own, in the case of Howard Shore its not dependant on the film its enhanced, in the case of Richard Wagner when you do it in concerts its equally powerful, you dont have sets, costumes and scenery as you would in the opera house. So I believe that's the strength of these composers that they can stand alone. Jessica Burke: The following questions were submitted by Heren
Istarion member, and member of the NY Wagner Society, Mr. Timothy Fisher: Robert Bass:You know, I'll tell you I think, in both these cases whether its Wagner or Tolkien they acheived something that many other composers and writers wished they had acheived and I think that will always inspire commentary. I think they were so extraordinarily successful that people then will comment on that success. I think there's inspiration, I don't think everybody loves Wagner and I don't think everybody loves Tolkien but I think that people that do are changed by these works and I think all of us who live today are looking for something that will change our lives in this way that will spark our imaginations or take us to a world away from our day to day lives. And I think its very fair to say that Tolkien achieved that, that Wagner achieved that and Howard Shore. They take you to a different place whether or not you love that place is for you to decide. Jessica Burke: I think this is something we might have touched on earlier--Shore admits to an influence on him by Wagner (whom, some have said, wrote the first film scores, so to say) where do you hear this in particular? and our reader asks you to be technical Robert Bass:Oh I think there certain harmonies by certain chords and in music they are called intervals, that both Wagner likes to use and Howard Shore likes to use so I pick certain moods, certain selections from the Wagner that I think point that out in Howard Shore's music as well they are technical things though. So there are certain, like I said certain harmonies, certain sounds within a orchestra and a chorus and certain intervals to those, that the composers share and I think many composers share. I think there is a big difference being evocative of something and derivative and I think the better you are the more its evocative and I find each of these evocative of other things but not derivative and thats how I would describe that. Jessica Burke: These last few questions were submitted by
Heren Istarion member, Deborah Singer, and again on a similar note: Robert Bass:I think the similarities would be what I describe as the lush sound ,ok, of music with the large choruses and large orchestras but not exclusivley. That's the striking part of it I find the differences are, with Howard Shore's, is when he returns to more ancient harmonies and ancient instruments.Wagner hints at that as well, he'll use one instrument in one of his operas, Tristan and Isolde, which we are not doing, he uses an english horn, a form of an oboe to play a long solo unaccompanied, which when people listen to it they say it sounds oddly like a folk tune, well it hints trying to get far back in time, but I think Howard shore goes farther back. Howard Shore uses an Irish whistle, which alot of people see in Irish dancing, which he uses for the hobbits. I think Wagner doesn't use anything quite like that, but he will use sounds for birds, and sounds for nature, and for certain groups of people, but Howard Shore as a modern composer has the advantage of combining the ancient with the folklore and the modern and I think Wagner's orchestral world isn't quite that broad, but most of them expanded the orchestra and the chorus beyond what the composers before them had to do. But thats what they have in common, is their going to use them differently and ask them to do things slightly new at that moment and since then others have incorporated those ideas. Jessica Burke: As Richard Wagner's operas express the musical Romanticism of his time, how does Howard Shore's Lord of the Rings Symphony particularly suit our time: how does it appeal musically to our twenty-first century ear and psyche? Robert Bass: I think the second part is easier to answer than the 1st. I think the psyche is more timely, I come back to to the timeliness of this. I think muscially it really comes down to a very basic thing, which is the talent of the composer, and I think that there is a combination of the visual images, which Howard Shore was looking at, and the Tolkien which he had read with great, became so knowledgable about that to create a world of sound that inhabits both of those worlds film and word but also can stand, I repeating a little bit, that can stand alone musically. So, I believe that's his particular talent and the only way you can discover that is hear to it --see you can't, one of the great things about music is its something you hear, it lives in the sounds at Carnegie Hall at that moment, then it's gone, the written word is there, the film is there, the notes on the page are there ,but sound lives in the moment and so that's the power of the music, which is kind of what your question is hinting at and you can't put it in words, so then the music is, the harder it is to put into language the better music is, the better it transcends all that, so that would be my answer Jessica Burke: What do you find most interesting in the juxtaposition of Wagner's mythical operas with Shore's Lord of the Rings Symphony? What attracted you to this project, specifically? Robert Bass:What attracted me was the very basic idea was there response to mythology and legend in the world of music. I found it, I thought they both achieved at the highest level of musical response to these great myths and legends, which are timeless and universal, so if there response is as good, as I think it is, then the music will speak the same way in a timeless way and a universal way, thats my thought Jessica Burke:Are you a fan of the LOTR? Are you a Tolkien fan? Robert Bass:Yes Jessica Burke:Can you tell us how you came to Tolkien? your thoughts on his work? Robert Bass:One of the great things about being a conducter is your taken on a journey by whatever music and text your working on at that time. So, this concert took me on this journey to understand the history of mythology and some of the linguistic history, and that's exciting. I mean its exciting to learn more about these worlds that we know something general about, that we have an impression about and I think, I also dont want to leave out the Flying Dutchman, which takes this mythology and legend in a yet different direction that the Ring does, that' why we call it music and mythology because its a very broad subject. I enjoy the challenge of having to learn something new and so this concert took me in a different direction than if you just did the film music or if you just did the opera, the Wagner, you would still be in a slightly smaller universe but this makes it even bigger and I think the bigger the landscape of the music, hopefully, the more people it will resonate with listeners, and thats our objective. Our objective is to communicate with the public, to do music that will resonate with them. And so this journey I hope will take everybody there. Anthony BurdgeI think thats very powerful for myself and I am
sure with everyout there, you said the power of music can affect them in a way, that when
seeing the films for the first time, like Fellowship of Ring, we saw Fellowship twenty-five
times in the theatre by itself, I think it was the music for me that drive's home. Jessica
Burke One of the things I find interesting about Shore's is that, Fellowship came
out, and as the films came out, there were alot of things arose toward the end of the films
we weren't as exuberant about, Jackson's interpretation of Tolkien sort of, there were alot
things that were left sort of open jawed, and confounded and the thing that I found that
had the interpretation down and did it for me was the music. Robert Bass: I look forward to seeing you both and many others at Carnegie Hall -- thanks so much Anthony Burdge Thank you --that will be November 13th at 3pm, we hope to see you all there 
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